Host Jan welcomes repeat guest Steve Fretzin, noting that they last spoke in 2021. Fretzin says the business-development landscape has changed more in the past five years than in the previous 15. Social media has made the “interest economy” and personal branding more important, while AI is changing how law is practiced, marketed, and discovered. He also sees more lawyers questioning the sustainability of billing 2,000-plus hours a year while effectively having multiple bosses—partners and clients—and seeking the autonomy that comes with building their own book of business.

Fretzin says he used to be “Mr. Networker,” attending almost every event and conference, but eventually recognized that focusing on the best existing connections, clients, and other low-hanging fruit produced more efficiently. His podcast, books, articles, videos, and social-media activity then built an international personal brand. His business shifted from roughly 80% business development and 20% branding to about 70% branding and marketing and 30% business development. He is now encouraging lawyers to create content, launch podcasts, write articles, and post consistently because clients adopting those methods have produced “crazy good” results.

Jan contrasts the immediate payoff of networking—a referral or meeting can produce a client tomorrow—with the longer tail of content, which can keep working after publication. Fretzin agrees that either channel can produce fast results: an article in the ABA Journal, Above the Law, or the National Law Review may reach someone at exactly the right moment, while a face-to-face meeting can lead directly to a referral. But neither is one-and-done. He recommends climbing both sides of the mountain: actively developing relationships while consistently staying top-of-mind through useful content.

Fretzin says the common factor behind business-development and branding success is consistency. Posting once or attending one event will not create a reliable pipeline; a lawyer who posts twice a week for a year can build a substantial following, remain visible to prospective clients and referral partners, and eventually generate five or ten new relationships from that activity. He recommends combining relationship-building with content rather than treating them as alternatives: networking can create people who amplify content, while content gives new contacts a reason to follow up after meeting the lawyer.

Fretzin identifies three advantages among his fastest-growing clients. First, they use a specific, actionable written plan defining targets, time allocation, low-hanging fruit, and the activities likely to produce the best return. Second, they have systems, processes, and language for meetings, including a structured way to avoid giving away uncontrolled free consulting. Third, they have accountability and performance review. He compares lawyers without these tools to golfers repeatedly slicing balls at a driving range without learning what causes the slice; they repeat meetings and mistakes without improving.

Fretzin says business development is easy for lawyers to postpone because they dislike it and billable work consumes their attention; accountability keeps it from falling to the bottom of the list. About six months before the interview, he created the Be That Lawyer community to bring together lawyers who follow his podcasts, books, and other content. Members get courses, articles, videos, chat rooms, shared wins, and networking with motivated rainmakers or aspiring rainmakers. Fretzin also hosts live events and planning sessions, though the community is less intensive than one-on-one coaching.

Fretzin rejects a universal recommendation to start a podcast, write a book, or focus on LinkedIn. Lawyers should first identify their target clients or referral partners and ask what those people watch, read, and listen to. He uses Meat Church, a grilling brand, as an example: because he wants to learn about smoking meat, its YouTube videos and seasonings reach him effectively. For his own legal-business-development audience, podcasts, books, and articles work especially well because lawyers can consume them while commuting, walking, or handling other tasks.

The host observes that a lawyer may perform better using an authentic format—such as podcasting—even if another format appears theoretically optimal. Fretzin agrees that lawyers need a customized plan based on their audience and strengths. Random LinkedIn posts, such as announcing a Super Lawyer award and disappearing for three months, do not build trust or value. He compares that approach to arriving in the Serengeti without a guide: lawyers need to know where they are going, whom they are trying to reach, and which tools and habits will get them there.

Fretzin describes a client who had never earned more than $1 million in a year but reached that figure before the fourth quarter ended. She followed a plan, used defined systems, and performed actions she normally avoided, including asking for referrals. Fretzin calls his approach “sales-free selling,” but says even nonaggressive sales techniques can feel uncomfortable. He gives a second example: when a prospective client immediately asked about rates, the lawyer used a “Green Redirect,” postponing pricing until she understood the matter, staffing, and value. That prevented an hourly number from being judged without context.

Fretzin’s central sales principle is that “prescription before diagnosis is malpractice.” A lawyer who quotes rates, provides free advice, or proposes a solution before understanding the client’s problem does both parties a disservice. He compares it to a doctor recommending a chainsaw for a sore arm. He also recounts rejecting an AI-marketing vendor who conducted good discovery but became overly aggressive about closing immediately; the vendor failed to validate experience with someone like Fretzin. The conversation closes with Fretzin directing lawyers to BeThatLawyer.com/community, BeThatLawyer.com, and his LinkedIn content.