Classic: Memes, archetypes, and the meaning we live by: Jordan Peterson vs Susan Blackmore

Key takeaways

Belief systems shape our actions and societal structures, making it essential to question the nature of those beliefs.
Religion can be viewed through the lens of memes, where cultural beliefs propagate behavior and social norms.
Archetypes may serve as foundational truths that inform the concepts of memes in human psychology.
Gratitude and meaning can be constructed without religious belief, but their origins may still stem from cultural and historical contexts.
Even self-identified atheists can act out religious principles, emphasizing the deep-rooted nature of belief in human behavior.

Summary

The Psychology of Belief

The conversation opens with a detailed analysis of the psychology behind belief systems. Jordan Peterson shares that belief is not merely about saying one believes in God, but rather about how one's actions reflect that belief. Peterson emphasizes that the traditional Judeo-Christian values permeate much of Western thought and ethics, illustrating that belief systems shape behaviors and societal structures.

Religion as a Memeplex

Susan Blackmore argues from a naturalistic perspective, suggesting that religion functions as a memeplex - a collection of memes that propagate behaviors and beliefs through culture. She views some aspects of religion as detrimental to human flourishing but also acknowledges that certain beneficial elements persist within religious traditions. The discussion digs into the critique of organized religion and its impact on society.

The Role of Archetypes and Memes

The two guests engage in an intellectual debate on the concepts of archetypes versus memes. Peterson asserts that memes are a simplified representation of deeper archetypal truths embedded in human psychology and culture. Blackmore defends the value of memes as cultural replicators that shape society but counters Peterson's claim that they can transcend historical context in a meaningful way.

Meaning and Gratitude Without God

As the discussion progresses, Blackmore expresses her views as an atheist advocating for a meaningful life without a divine foundation, emphasizing gratitude as a personal construct. Peterson challenges this notion, arguing that even secular gratitude and morality are rooted in the historical and spiritual values imparted by religious belief. They explore whether human constructs can hold up without specific divine underpinnings.

The Nature of True Belief

In a powerful conclusion, Peterson suggests that many who consider themselves atheists still act out religious values in daily life. He highlights the paradox of claiming atheism while engaging in behaviors that reflect deeper religious and spiritual legacies, ultimately pushing the idea that everyone, in some form, revolves around a central belief that informs their actions.

Show notes

In this classic edition of Unbelievable? - The Big Conversation we ask: do we need God to make sense of life? In a 2018 debate, Jordan Peterson and Susan Blackmore explore the psychology of belief through the lenses of memes and archetypes. Peterson argues that religious structures underpin even secular life, while Blackmore sees religion as a cultural virus—sometimes beneficial, often dangerous. Though deeply influenced by the Judeo-Christian tradition, Peterson refuses to be drawn on the divinity of Jesus, framing belief in terms of psychological necessity rather than doctrinal commitment. Blackmore, a committed atheist, champions naturalism and memes as the primary drivers of human culture. Together with host Justin Brierley, they wrestle with whether meaning, gratitude, and moral action require a divine foundation, or whether human constructs alone are sufficient.
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