Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
“Engineers are becoming sorcerers” | The future of software development with OpenAI’s Sherwin Wu
· Summarized
Key takeaways
- 95% of engineers at OpenAI now utilize AI tools like Codex for coding, shifting their roles from individual contributors to tech leads managing AI agents.
- AI optimizes workflows, reducing code review times from 10-15 minutes to 2-3 minutes, enhancing productivity significantly.
- The role of engineering managers is evolving as teams become more focused on overseeing AI integration rather than traditional coding.
- Business process automation presents a massive opportunity for AI applications outside of traditional tech industries.
- Companies should build tools and practices with an eye towards the future capabilities of AI, as the landscape is changing rapidly.
- OpenAI remains dedicated to an open ecosystem, fostering an environment where innovation can thrive across various sectors.
Summary
AI and the Future of Software Engineering
Sherwin Wu, head of engineering for OpenAI's API, discusses the significant shift in how software coding is done today. With the integration of AI tools like Codex, approximately 95% of engineers at OpenAI now utilize AI for code generation, thus drastically changing the traditional role of a software engineer to that of a tech lead or manager overseeing multiple AI agents. This transition highlights how engineers are now akin to 'wizards,' casting spells (writing commands) that get executed by the AI.
Changing Roles and Team Dynamics
Wu explains the evolving role of engineering managers in the AI-driven landscape. As engineers increasingly rely on AI for coding, they have to adapt to a management style that involves overseeing multiple AI agents rather than writing code manually. This paradigm shift not only enhances productivity but also requires managers to focus more on strategic oversight while empowering top performers to maximize their productivity.
Optimizing Workflows with AI
OpenAI has implemented AI-driven tools that streamline workflows, notably in code reviews. With Codex reviewing 100% of pull requests, OpenAI has greatly reduced review times from 10-15 minutes down to as little as 2-3 minutes. This efficiency allows engineers to focus on more complex tasks while allowing the AI to handle repetitive reviews.
Business Process Automation Opportunities
Wu identifies a growing trend in business process automation as AI integrates into various industries. He believes that opportunities lie outside traditional engineering roles, particularly in automating repetitive tasks in non-tech sectors. This remains an untapped area for AI innovation and could lead to significant enhancements in productivity.
Navigating AI's Rapidly Changing Landscape
Discussing the rapid evolution of AI, Wu warns against getting too attached to specific tools or practices, highlighting the 'scaffolding' that will likely become obsolete as models improve. He advises businesses to build with an eye on future capabilities rather than current limitations, as AI development continues to accelerate.
OpenAI's Ecosystem and Mission
Lastly, Wu underscores OpenAI's commitment to fostering an open ecosystem that encourages startups and developers to leverage its platform. This approach aligns with OpenAI's mission to ensure that the advancements in AI benefit all of humanity, not just a select few.
Sponsors
- DX · The developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers, to thrive in the AI era, organizations need to adapt quickly. But many organization leaders struggle to answer pressing questions like, which tools are working? How are they being used? What's actually driving value? DX provides the data and insights that leaders need to navigate this shift. With DX, companies like Dropbox, Booking.com, Adian, and Intercom, get a deep understanding of how AI is providing value to their developers and what impact AI is having on engineering productivity. To learn more, visit DX's website at getdx.com slash Lenny.
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Show notes
Sherwin Wu leads engineering for OpenAI’s API platform, where roughly 95% of engineers use Codex, often working with fleets of 10 to 20 parallel AI agents.
We discuss:
1. What OpenAI did to cut code review times from 10-15 minutes to 2-3 minutes
2. How AI is changing the role of managers
3. Why the productivity gap between AI power users and everyone else is widening
4. Why “models will eat your scaffolding for breakfast”
5. Why the next 12 to 24 months are a rare window where engineers can leap ahead before the role fully transforms
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Brought to you by:
DX—The developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers
Sentry—Code breaks, fix it faster
Datadog—Now home to Eppo, the leading experimentation and feature flagging platform
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Episode transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/engineers-are-becoming-sorcerers
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Archive of all Lenny's Podcast transcripts: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/yxi4s2w998p1gvtpu4193/AMdNPR8AOw0lMklwtnC0TrQ?rlkey=j06x0nipoti519e0xgm23zsn9&st=ahz0fj11&dl=0
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Where to find Sherwin Wu:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sherwinwu1
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Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
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In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Introduction to Sherwin Wu
(03:10) AI’s role in coding at OpenAI
(06:53) The future of software engineering with AI
(12:26) The stress of managing agents
(15:07) Codex and code review automation
(19:29) The changing role of engineering managers
(24:14) The one-person billion-dollar startup
(31:40) Management lessons
(37:28) Challenges and best practices in AI deployment
(43:56) Hot takes on AI and customer feedback
(48:57) Building for future AI capabilities
(50:16) Where models are headed in the next 18 months
(53:35) Business process automation
(57:22) OpenAI’s ecosystem and platform strategy
(01:00:50) OpenAI’s mission and global impact
(01:05:21) Building on OpenAI’s API and tools
(01:08:16) Lightning round and final thoughts
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Referenced:
• Codex: https://openai.com/codex
• OpenAI’s CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai
• OpenClaw: https://openclaw.ai
• The creator of Clawd: “I ship code I don’t read”: https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/the-creator-of-clawd-i-ship-code
• The Sorcerer’s Apprentice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sorcerer%27s_Apprentice_(Dukas)
• Quora: https://www.quora.com
• Marc Andreessen: The real AI boom hasn’t even started yet: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/marc-andreessen-the-real-ai-boom
• Sarah Friar on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-friar
• Sam Altman on X: https://x.com/sama
• Nicolas Bustamante’s “LLMs Eat Scaffolding for Breakfast” post on X: https://x.com/nicbstme/status/2015795605524901957
• The Bitter Lesson: http://www.incompleteideas.net/IncIdeas/BitterLesson.html
• Overton window: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
• Developers can now submit apps to ChatGPT: https://openai.com/index/developers-can-now-submit-apps-to-chatgpt
• Responses: https://platform.openai.com/docs/api-reference/responses
• Agents SDK: https://platform.openai.com/docs/guides/agents-sdk
• AgentKit: https://openai.com/index/introducing-agentkit
• Ubiquiti: https://ui.com
• Jujutsu Kaisen on Crunchyroll: https://www.crunchyroll.com/series/GRDV0019R/jujutsu-kaisen?srsltid=AfmBOoqvfzKQ6SZOgzyJwNQ43eceaJTQA2nUxTQfjA1Ko4OxlpUoBNRB
• eero: https://eero.com
• Opendoor: https://www.opendoor.com
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Recommended books:
• Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs: https://www.amazon.com/Structure-Interpretation-Computer-Programs-Engineering/dp/0262510871
• The Mythical Man-Month: Essays on Software Engineering: https://www.amazon.com/Mythical-Man-Month-Software-Engineering-Anniversary/dp/0201835959
• There Is No Antimemetics Division: A Novel: https://www.amazon.com/There-No-Antimemetics-Division-Novel/dp/0593983750
• Breakneck: China’s Quest to Engineer the Future: https://www.amazon.com/Breakneck-Chinas-Quest-Engineer-Future/dp/1324106034
• Apple in China: The Capture of the World’s Greatest Company: https://www.amazon.com/Apple-China-Capture-Greatest-Company/dp/1668053373
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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com
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