Notion’s lost years, its near collapse during Covid, staying small to move fast, the joy and suffering of building horizontal, more | Ivan Zhao (CEO and co-founder) · Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth summary

Key takeaways

Finding product-market fit often takes time and persistence, as shown in the early years of Notion.
Building systems and focusing on craftsmanship rather than simply increasing the workforce can lead to more sustainable success.
Crisis situations, such as infrastructure limitations, can be pivotal learning moments for companies.
Creating horizontal platforms requires a deep understanding of user needs while also segmenting offerings to meet diverse demands.
Philosophical considerations in product development can ultimately enhance the impact and reception of the tool in relation to human potential.

Summary

The Journey of Notion: Early Years and Challenges

Ivan Zhao, co-founder and CEO of Notion, reflects on the company’s early years, often referred to as the 'lost years.' The initial strategy focused on building accessible developer tools, which failed to resonate with users. After years of iterations, they pivoted to developing a productivity tool, encapsulating their vision of enabling more people to create their own software in a more relatable form. This was likened to 'sugar-coating broccoli,' where the essential features (the broccoli) were hidden within attractive and user-friendly interfaces (the sugar). The importance of product-market fit became evident, emphasizing that understanding user needs rather than personal vision is crucial for long-term success.

Resilience and Philosophy in Product Development

Ivan emphasizes the philosophy behind Notion’s architecture and product development. He describes the need to build systems that maintain integrity while keeping the team lean and focused. Rather than expanding headcount, they invested in their tools and infrastructure, enabling high talent density within a smaller workforce. This approach helped maintain profitability from early on and allowed for efficient scaling. Ivan champions the idea of crafting meaningful products, balancing technical prowess with aesthetic values, ultimately aiming for products that enhance the human experience in creativity and productivity.

Crisis Moments and Navigating Challenges

During a pivotal moment in COVID, Notion faced a potential collapse as they were limited by their database space. This challenge forced the company to stop feature development and focus entirely on upgrading their infrastructure. The experience of running out of space became a lesson in the importance of foresight in tech infrastructure. Through perseverance and collective effort, they overcome this obstacle, illustrating a key theme of resilience amid adversity. Moreover, Ivan underlined the significance of sharing the experience with the team to unify efforts in overcoming crises.

Building Horizontal Solutions: Joys and Pains

Ivan dives into the complexities of building a horizontal platform like Notion, which seeks to serve multiple use cases rather than specializing in a single domain. This approach necessitates understanding user segments and speaking to their specific needs. He draws parallels between several successful products and points out the evolution from building blocks (like Legos) to offering packaged solutions (like complete sets) for customers. As they build towards more diverse applications, Notion is also utilizing AI to enhance user experience and further integrate their diverse offerings, noting that community feedback has played a vital role in shaping their direction.

The Philosophical Understanding of Tools and Human Potential

Ivan concludes with his broader vision of how tools impact human potential, based on the quote by Marshall McLuhan: 'We shape our tools, and thereafter our tools shape us.' He seeks to create software that enhances creativity and beauty, emphasizing the importance of crafting products that reflect the best aspects of human nature.

Show notes

Ivan Zhao is the co-founder and CEO of Notion. Ivan shares the untold story of Notion, from nearly running out of database space during Covid to finding product-market fit after several “lost years,” and the hard-won lessons along the way.

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What you’ll learn:

1. Why you sometimes need to “hide your vision” behind something people actually want—what Ivan calls “sugar-coating the broccoli”

2. How Ivan and his co-founder persevered through multiple product resets and complete code rewrites

3. Why Notion prioritized systems over headcount, keeping the team small and focused even at scale

4. Why Ivan believes in craft and values as the foundation for product development, balancing technical excellence with aesthetic sensibility

5. The surprising story of how Notion nearly collapsed during Covid when their single database almost ran out of space with only weeks to spare

6. Community-led growth tactics

7. Ivan’s unique journey from a small town in China

8. Much more

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Brought to you by:

• Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments

• Airtable ProductCentral—Launch to new heights with a unified system for product development

• Sinch—Build messaging, email, and calling into your product

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Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-notion-ivan-zhao

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Where to find Ivan Zhao:

• X: https://x.com/ivanhzhao

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ivanhzhao/

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Introduction to Ivan Zhao

(04:41) Ivan’s early life and education

(07:46) Discovering the vision for Notion

(10:49) The lost years of Notion

(13:56) Rebuilding and perseverance

(17:14) Layoffs and company morale

(18:53) Advice for startup founders

(25:08) Product-market fit

(29:56) Staying lean and efficient

(34:27) Creating a unique office culture

(37:20) Craft and values: the foundation of Notion’s philosophy

(38:44) Navigating tradeoffs in product and business building

(41:24) Leadership and personal growth

(49:11) Challenges and crises: lessons from Notion’s journey

(51:08) Building horizontal software: joys and pains

(01:02:40) Philosophy of tools and human potential

(01:06:17) Lightning round and final thoughts

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Referenced:

• Ürümqi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi

• Notion: https://www.notion.com/

• SpongeBob SquarePants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpongeBob_SquarePants

• Augmenting Human Intellect: https://web.stanford.edu/class/history34q/readings/Engelbart/Engelbart_AugmentIntellect.html

• Alan Kay: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Kay

• Ted Nelson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Nelson

• Steve Jobs on Why Computers Are Like a Bicycle for the Mind (1990): https://www.themarginalian.org/2011/12/21/steve-jobs-bicycle-for-the-mind-1990/

• Xerox Alto: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Alto

• React: https://react.dev/

• Simon Last on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simon-last-41404140/

• Magna-Tiles: https://www.magnatiles.com/

• Design on a deadline: How Notion pulled itself back from the brink of failure: https://www.figma.com/blog/design-on-a-deadline-how-notion-pulled-itself-back-from-the-brink-of-failure/

• Bryan Johnson on X: https://x.com/bryan_johnson

• Tobi Lütke’s leadership playbook: Playing infinite games, operating from first principles, and maximizing human potential (founder and CEO of Shopify): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/tobi-lutkes-leadership-playbook

• Smalltalk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalltalk#:

• Lisp: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_(programming_language)

• DeepSeek: https://www.deepseek.com/

• Shana Fisher: https://www.crunchbase.com/person/shana-fisher

• LAMY 2000 fountain pens: https://www.jetpens.com/LAMY-2000-Fountain-Pens/

• Macintosh 128K: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_128K

• Toshiba rice cooker: https://www.toshiba-lifestyle.com/us/cooking-appliances/rice-cooker

• Transistor radio: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor_radio

• Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira

• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/

• HubSpot: https://www.hubspot.com/

• Zendesk: https://www.zendesk.com/

• Misattributed McLuhan quote: https://mcluhangalaxy.wordpress.com/2013/04/01/we-shape-our-tools-and-thereafter-our-tools-shape-us/

• Phin Barnes on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/phineasbarnes/

• Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/

• Pablo Picasso quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/629531-good-artists-copy-great-artists-steal#:~

• Connections with James Burke on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.484e32c5-60bd-4493-a800-e44fd0940312

• The Enneagram Institute: https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/

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Recommended book:

• The Romance of the Three Kingdoms: https://www.amazon.com/Romance-Three-Kingdoms-Luo-Guanzhong/dp/024133277X

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

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Notion’s lost years, its near collapse during Covid, staying small to move fast, the joy and suffering of building horizontal, more | Ivan Zhao (CEO and co-founder)