Dr. Jill Lepore on why the AI backlash is vital for the future

Key takeaways

The 'artificial state' refers to a future where private corporations and digital platforms increasingly replace traditional government functions, risking the dehumanization of democracy.
Historical systems of measurement and control have evolved from census data to sophisticated algorithms, which now often serve to consolidate power rather than promote transparency.
Utopian visions of technology promised democratization but often led to new inequalities and systemic control. Modern tech leaders’ narratives of AI as democracy’s savior are largely self-serving.
Digital platforms initially aimed to democratize access to information, but targeted advertising, algorithmic sorting, and identity politics have created new forms of inequality and civic disconnection.
Restoring faith in democracy requires direct community engagement and moral integrity within institutions, rather than relying solely on technological or corporate solutions.

Summary

The Concept of the Artificial State

Dr. Jill Lepore introduces the idea of the 'artificial state' as a successor to the traditional nation-state, where private corporations and digital platforms increasingly take over functions of governance and public discourse. She emphasizes how this privatization and commercialization threaten the foundational principles of democracy, with social media platforms dominated by bots and algorithms that prioritize monetization over free expression. The discussion highlights a transition towards a system where the state’s role is diminished, and private entities increasingly govern public life.

Historical Foundations and Modern Developments in Measurement and Control

The podcast traces the evolution of measurement and systemic control from early census-taking to modern political polling and social media algorithms. Lepore discusses how these systems, especially since the 1980s with the rise of Silicon Valley and AI, have shifted from serving democratic transparency to consolidating power within tech giants. The conversation critiques the technological promises of liberation and democratization, pointing out that these often mask a deeper trend of dehumanization and systemic control, culminating in concerns over AI-driven political and social manipulation.

The Utopian and Dystopian Visions of Technology

The discussion explores how sci-fi authors in the mid-20th century imagined the future of technology—either utopian or dystopian—which reflected real anxieties about dehumanization and control in the machine age. Lepore criticizes modern tech leaders like Musk and Altman for espousing visions of AI that resemble dystopian models, such as machine-selected presidents or automated governance, arguing these overlook the importance of humanistic inquiry. She traces a cultural rejection of the past and a fetishization of disruption that undermines the values of humility and human wisdom, vital for a healthy democracy.

The Democratization and Its Discontents in the Digital Age

The episode examines how technology initially promised to democratize access to information and participation, from early newspapers to the internet, but has ultimately facilitated a new form of inequality through targeted advertising and algorithmic sorting. Lepore discusses the false hope of digital democracy, the rise of identity politics through platform algorithms, and the consolidation of power by tech giants. She raises concerns over the erosion of civic agency, exemplified by community conflicts over local developments like data centers, and worries that the decay of trust in institutions makes recovery of democratic norms increasingly difficult.

The Political and Cultural Impact of AI and Automation

The conversation turns to how AI and automation are shaping politics, from campaigning strategies involving micro-targeting to public mistrust of tech-driven governance. Lepore highlights the paradox that leaders claim democracy will prevail in regulating AI, yet their proposals often lack genuine democratic process. She emphasizes the importance of direct, community-based engagement, like university student protests, as potential avenues for reinvigorating civic participation. The episode concludes with reflections on the need for moral integrity in institutions and the challenge of rebuilding trust in governing systems amid the pervasive influence of the artificial state.

Show notes

Dr. Jill Lepore is one of the best writers there is at identifying institutional patterns in history, and Decoder is a show about systems and organization — so her new book, The Rise and Fall of the Artificial State, is a perfect fit for the show.

You build systems by measuring things — gathering information, quantifying it as data, and taking action on it. The book's big thesis is that this kind of systemic measurement is really a dehumanizing act, one that flattens humanity and human concerns into something, well, artificial.

These artificial structures touch everything — not just in the more obvious places like in apps or AI, but all the way up to politics, governance, and the very future of the nation-state itself.

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge.

Links:

The Artificial State | The New Yorker

‘Terminator’ to tech titans: Jill Lepore on the ‘artificial state’ | Yale Univ.

The failed ideas that drive Elon Musk | New York Times

Sam Altman | The Joe Rogan Experience

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Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder’s producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
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