How to Beat the Gamification of Our Lives with C. Thi Nguyen

Key takeaways

Video games provide a unique environment where scoring systems can enhance creativity and exploration, contrasting sharply with the metrics of daily life.
Value capture occurs when individual values are overshadowed by external metrics, leading to a simplification of complex human experiences.
Community spaces that encourage creativity, such as indie tabletop games, can serve as important counterforces to the overwhelming nature of metrics.
It’s crucial to maintain a distinction between metrics (which can be helpful yet restrictive) and the rich, qualitative aspects of human experience.
Finding freedom and meaning in life often requires stepping back from metrics and embracing processes that encourage personal and collective joy.

Summary

The Dual Nature of Scoring Systems

The podcast begins by exploring the nature of scoring systems in video games. Host Adam Conover discusses how scores traditionally guide player behavior and enhance the gaming experience. This contrasts sharply with their role in daily life, where metrics can distort values and lead to unhealthy obsessions, such as calorie counting or social media likes. Adam shares a personal anecdote about altering his music choices to influence his streaming platform's year-end summary, illustrating how daily metrics can warp personal preferences.

The Philosophy of Games with C. Thi Nguyen

C. Thi Nguyen, a philosopher and guest on the podcast, delves into the complexity of metrics in both gaming and life. They discuss his book, "The Score: How to Stop Playing Someone Else's Game," which examines why some scoring systems encourage creativity and joy while others diminish meaningful experiences. Nguyen argues that game designers create environments that allow players to explore and express themselves, unlike the rigid scoring systems in daily life.

Value Capture and the Danger of Reducing Meaning

The conversation shifts toward the concept of value capture, which occurs when personal values become overshadowed by metrics imposed by external forces. Nguyen explains how metrics simplify and strip away the richness of human experiences, leading to a disconnect between true values and the metrics we chase. Through examples such as social media interactions or the way nonprofits might prioritize efficiency over care, they illustrate the dangers of prioritizing countable metrics over meaningful actions.

Finding Freedom in the Absurdity of Metrics

Towards the end of the episode, Adam and Nguyen discuss the contrast between life and games, where the former often prioritizes outcomes while the latter encourages exploration. They emphasize the importance of recognizing life's richness beyond metrics, suggesting communities and environments like indie tabletop games as spaces for creativity and play. They propose that, although the prevalence of metrics can feel overwhelming, cultivating spaces that encourage 'play' allows people to navigate and redefine their values.

Show notes

The scoring mechanics of video games are ostensibly how the player is directed to have fun. Scores put interesting bounds on the experience of play, lead to creative solutions, and even inspire entirely new models of play, like speed running a video game. But when systems of metrics are applied to our actual lives, it’s… not as nice. “Gamification” is just one symptom of our society’s obsession with metrics, and while we tend to like to see Number Go Up, attempting to maximize our “scores” in various aspects of life only seems to make us unhappy. This week, Adam talks with C. Thi Nguyen, a professor of philosophy at the University of Utah and author of The Score: How to Stop Playing Someone Else’s Game. Together they unpack the hidden ways that metrics are used to control thought and limit perception of worth, and the life-affirming value of looking beyond the systems assembled around us. Find Thi's book at factuallypod.com/books

--

SUPPORT THE SHOW ON PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/adamconover

SEE ADAM ON TOUR: https://www.adamconover.net/tourdates/

SUBSCRIBE to and RATE Factually! on:

» Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/factually-with-adam-conover/id1463460577

» Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0fK8WJw4ffMc2NWydBlDyJ

About Headgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creating premium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy to achieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to our shows at https://www.headgum.com.

» SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1

» FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum

» FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/

» FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgum

» Advertise on Factually! via Gumball.fm

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.