Tisha Talks Switches - Brown

Brown

Apr 1, 2021 - 22m 53s

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Introduction to Tactile Switches

The podcast opens with hosts Aerith and Tisha discussing the tactile characteristics of brown switches. Tisha explains that tactile switches provide a noticeable bump at the actuation point, offering tactile feedback that is distinct from linear switches.

Comparison of Tactile and Linear Switches

Tisha shares insights on how tactile switches often feel less smooth than linear switches due to the bump that users must press through. Aerith and Tisha provide analogies to describe the experience, such as the feel of a hardwood floor or the mechanics of a camera shutter release. They highlight that while tactile switches provide feedback, their sound characteristics can differ from linear switches.

Popular Brown Switches: Cherry MX Brown and Kale Box Brown

As the discussion progresses, the focus shifts to popular brown switches. The Cherry MX Brown switch is identified as the classic choice for its recognizable feel and actuation. Tisha mentions that it is often a beginner's choice for mechanical keyboards. In contrast, the Kale Box Brown is noted for its slightly different tactile response and potentially less noise upon actuation.

Performance and Feel of Kale Brown Switch

Aerith and Tisha compare Kale Brown switches, which are heavier compared to the other two and offer a springy feel. The Kale Brown switch's heavier actuation is likened to typing on multiple tiny slinkies. Tisha admits that out of the three, she has less experience with the Kale Brown but appreciates both the Cherry MX Brown and Kale Box Brown for their unique characteristics.

Final Thoughts and Future Discussion

The episode wraps up with the hosts agreeing that while each switch has its nuances, personal preference ultimately dictates the ideal choice for typing experience. They tease future discussions on other tactile switches available in the market.

- Tactile switches provide a noticeable bump that gives feedback upon actuation, differing from linear switches.
- Cherry MX Brown is a classic choice for mechanical keyboard enthusiasts, especially for beginners.
- Kale Box Brown offers a slightly different tactile response that users may find preferable for noise reduction.
- Kale Brown switches are heavier and provide a distinct tactile experience reminiscent of numerous small slinkies.
- Personal preference plays a significant role in selecting the best switch for typing comfort.

Transcription

I'm Aerith from Zedice and with me here today's Tisha, our resident switch expert and support lead.

How's it going Tisha?

It's going okay, how are you?

I'm good, I'm good.

It's going to be springtime here in Southern Ontario and I'm liking it.

It is here too in Chicago and I'm a winter person, so I'm a little sad.

All right, so today we're here to talk about some brown switches, right?

Right, yeah, we carry a few different brown switches.

Mm-hmm.

Cool.

So those are those will be tactile switches.

Right.

So maybe we kind of covered this in the intro, but maybe let's let's cover that again just briefly.

So what is a tactile switch really?

Sure, tactile switches have basically a little bump of additional resistance, usually at the point the switch actuates to give your fingers a little tactile feedback as you type.

Right.

You know, to me, one thing reading descriptions of tactile switches, it always, when I read the description, it always seems like that bump is going to be really noticeable, whereas I find that, at least for me, subjectively, often it just feels like a linear switch that not as smooth, you know what I mean?

Right.

Yeah, I do know what you mean, and it depends on the switch.

Some of them, I wouldn't say any of them that we carry, but there are switches out there with big tactile bumps where it is something you kind of have to push through.

But a lot of them, it's more like this is maybe kind of a funny description, but like kind of the opposite of a notch.

Oh, okay, it feels kind of like almost like a recess in the line when you're pressing down.

Like a dip nose.

Right.

Right, although we describe it and it is commonly described as a bump, so that's kind of the opposite of a notch, but think something generally kind of small like that.

Not big like a stop, but small like like a little hitch, like a little notch.

Right.

I think something a lot of people have experienced with, Now that I think of it as with cameras, sometimes you have a half press and then you press all the way down, like half press to focus and then you press all the way down to take the picture.

Oh, right.

And there it really stops you and I think for me that's kind of where I came to tactile switches from.

That was my experience with a type of switch that has a midway thing, but it wasn't really like that at all.

No, for the most part, it's not going to be that severe at all.

It's just I'm trying to think of of an analogy.

Maybe like if you're, if you think of a hardwood floor that's made of little planks of wood that are closely joined together and if it's done well, so everything's nice and even, but you run your fingers over the floor.

You'll just feel kind of a teeny little seam there going between planks.

It's maybe I need to do that.

That sounds oddly satisfying.

Right.

But even if you haven't done it, maybe you can kind of imagine what it might be like.

We're talking about a small sort of texture change.

Well, maybe that's not quite the right but maybe more like a seam than a bump would be a good description in some cases.

I like it.

I can see that.

So if it starts subtle, would you say the audio profile of those switches is kind of like the linear ones or is there a difference between you know when you type in terms of loudness.

Right.

Of course, it depends on more than just the switch itself, but for the most part, they are going to be noticeably louder than linear switches.

They are going to be noticeably louder?

Yes.

Not as loud, you know, so you've got kind of the three big categories linear tactile and clicky, and these are in the middle, clicky switches are the loudest, but again, for the most part, they're going to be louder.

There are things hitting other things inside the switch.

And probably also that extra bit of force that you need to, I guess, clear for lack of a better word, the tactile bump will tend to make a little bit more noise as you're typing.

I never considered that right, because most of the noise that, at least with non-clicking switches.

I feel most of the noise is kind of plastic on plastic.

The thwack has the key bottoms out.

Right.

And yeah, I guess with a tactile switch, I will press down harder.

Even if the switch is rated the same as the linear one, it still has that bump that, yeah, that I got to clear.

So I'll kind of thwack it a little bit harder than the linear one.

That makes sense.

To me, they have a a pretty typical mechanical keyboard sound.

Of course, that's a matter of perspective.

I think for a lot of people, clicky switches are the stereotypical mechanical keyboard sound, but there's something about that kind of flock, flock sound that says mechanical keyboard to me.

Right.

So really before we dive into the three types of brown switches we carry.

Why would, or why do you think most people go for brown?

Because of that, because of that classic mechanical feel and sound?

I think so, and probably for most people, this is just a guess, but probably for most people, the feel, so that you get a little signal.

Your fingertips feel a little signal when the key is actuated.

With a linear switch, in general, most of them actuate about half way down through their travel distance.

But you don't get any, there's no change in the way the switch feels when that happens.

Right.

With the tactile switch, there's that little change in the way the switch feels that kind of goes hand in hand with the actuation.

I hear, yeah.

It kind of works together as one system like you feel it and you seat on your screen.

Right.

And yeah, yeah, for sure.

So then I guess the the grand adi of all brown switches or really all tactile switches would be the cherry MX brown, right?

Yeah, I would say so.

It's been around a while.

It's very popular.

It's a switch that a lot of people have heard of.

Right.

It's actually our default, you know, when we were designing both for the Ergatox and the new website, ZetaCIO, it's on point we had to decide, okay, if I've never heard of Switch at all, what's the switch that should be presented as the default?

And yeah, MX Brown really feels like that classic switch, you know, like when in Dalat, MX Brown, right?

Right.

Yeah, I think if you're just getting into mechanical keyboards, getting your first mechanical keyboard.

It's a good choice if you're otherwise not really sure about exactly what you want.

If you know you want something very quiet or that you prefer something very loud, then you know, no, there are other ways to go.

But if you just, you know, I want something that feels good under my fingers that isn't either too heavy or too light, that gives me a little bit feedback.

This is a nice place to start.

Nice.

So how would you characterize the feel of a cherry MX Brown?

So not to have you said?

Right.

It is on the lighter side.

I would say I like to describe it, which is, you know, maybe kind of a wishy-washy description, but as light slash medium, because it's not it's not super light but it's on the lighter side.

So it's not tiring it's easy to type on but I think you still do get that feeling of substance I guess under your fingers.

Right.

It's not so light that it's I guess trivial feeling.

One thing people sometimes tell me on on the MX Browns, you've probably seen this as well.

Some people, I don't know, one in, I don't know how many.

They say they ping on the upstroke, like that they press the switch, the switch is fine, it actually, but then they let go, and there's like this slight mechanical thing or something like that really irritates some people.

Have you seen this?

I have, and you're right, I don't think that it's, on one hand, I don't think that it's super common.

I don't necessarily think that that's the way they all are, but it can happen, and also there are some people who are more sensitive to it than others, some people who maybe wouldn't, you know, don't even notice it at all, and some for whom it's just super annoying.

And it's because, I mean, it's because there's a metal spring inside and some other little metal parts.

It also, So I think depends a little bit on how you type.

I think if you're an aggressive typer who tends to hit the keys fairly hard, you're more likely to get that.

It's kind of almost a little like a metallic impact sound almost as the metal basically the form is back to its default state kind of right.

I think it's as the spring is recoiling Basically, yeah, so it can happen and the cherry MX brown it can't happen with the switch Yeah, I think that some other tactile switches are less prone to it.

So like so Let's say I want to I want to go tactile and I'm very concerned about this potential thing.

It's just to clarify.

It's not all of them.

Is it like it's not right?

right?

It's kind of every now and then type of thing, right?

Right.

I would say so.

But let's say I'm, you know, I'm very sensitive to thinking sounds and whatnot, but I still want to go tactile.

What what would I do?

What would you suggest?

Well, the kale box brown is another tactile switch.

It's another, your brown.

And pretty similar to the cherry mx brown but at least I guess in my experience and from what I've heard from users it doesn't seem to be so prone to that pingy noise.

It makes me think maybe it's because of the shape of the stem because the box keys what makes them well the box in the box keys the stem of the keys shape different versus the classic mx shape and they are more stable I wonder if a part of that thing is use some vibration on the stem that the box brown just doesn't have because it's a bit sturdier.

Right, yeah, maybe so and maybe the extra just kind of plastic, the extra material in the box stem, the box part, it provides some insulation.

Just muffles it.

Right.

Yeah, actually I don't I don't know, but, but maybe.

So would you say that just a regular keycap, like a one you kick up ASDF mounted on a box switch versus an MX brown?

Does it actually feel more stable on a box switch?

Boy, that is a good question.

I think, and any of these differences are going to be super, super small, I think that it might feel like the fit is a little tighter, but switch stems have some lateral play built in.

it's by design that keys on a mechanical keyboard feel I mean I guess a little wobbly if you put your fingers on the keys and just without pressing down just wiggle you'll be able to wiggle them a little bit by design because when we type our fingers don't go exactly straight up and down we hit keys maybe from a different angle depending on the row and their column they're in and stuff So the switch stems need to be able to need to have a little bit of play to account for that if they could only move straight up and down with no wiggle There would be a lot of friction when you typed because you're not hitting the keys exactly straight up and down if that makes sense.

The key would lock up on me basically.

I would try to depress it because I'm doing it at an angle.

It just it wouldn't go because it wouldn't translate my angular motion into a straight down, right?

right or it would but it would be there would be a lot of friction and it would be kind of difficult so because of that I don't necessarily think they feel more stable in that there's less wiggle but I do think that they might fit just a touch more tightly makes sense so then the actual experience of typing on box Browns versus say MX Browns.

What's the feel like again?

It's it's very similar.

There meant to be quite similar switches.

So all of these differences are small, but I feel like the box brown has a slightly gentler tactile bump in that it requires maybe a little bit less force, but it's also a little bit crisper feeling bump.

The cherry MX Brown, I tend to describe its tactile bump as being kind of round.

It's kind of like a rounded off hill.

The kale box brown is a little bit, it's got a little bit more of a peak at the top.

It's a little bit sharper hill.

Interesting.

And then do I get the letter on my screen before or after that little hill, before or after the bump.

You get it basically at the same time, with all of the brown switches, the actuation happens basically at the same time, yeah, as the tactile bump.

That's an important distinction to me, because I think when you look at the graphs and the specs, it seems like it doesn't happen at exactly the same point, right, just electrically I guess the contact has to be before or after, but really in actual use because of the tolerances, it feels like it happens at the same time when you're just typing it full tilt.

Right, right.

The box brown has a slightly shorter total travel and pre-travel distance, but we're talking fractions of a millimeter.

So I don't know, for me, I don't feel a difference.

Certainly, there are people who may, but these differences are very, very small, like tenths of a millimeter.

I guess one thing I can say about the box brown switches that we found when we started stocking them, is if people look at our site, they'll see that we only offer them with the RGB versions of our boards, it's the ones that light up because those versions have different keycaps, those come from Ty-How.

And our other keycaps for the Ergodox, for the Ergodox CZ, they come from Signature.

And those Signature keycaps can actually break when you mount them on a box-brown switch because the stem is shaped different.

And that's that surprised me.

That's something we found after we started working with them.

That's when we made the call.

Okay, we're only going to ship them with of keycaps that we know to work well with.

Right, right.

That's why you'll only see the Kale box Brown available for the Modelander and for the Ergadox Easy Glow and the Plank Easy Glow because we know we've tested and know that they work well with the backlit keycaps.

But I guess that ever so slightly tighter fit makes a difference in that the fit isn't great with the signature keycaps.

Yeah, right.

And that actually, another point here, I guess, is that the box is an RGB switch.

And people are sometimes a little bit confused about that, right?

They say, okay, RGB does it have the light in it, but it doesn't.

It's just a clear housing that lets light through if the board has that light.

Right.

You can put an RGB switch on a non-backlit board.

That's no problem at all.

The RGB designation just means I mean at least in our case you know I can't I can't speak for other people who sell switches and write their descriptions differently but in our case and in most cases that I've seen it means that the switch either has completely clear housing or in some cases like actually with the box switches some of the housing is opaque but there's a cut out in the switch in the in the spot that sits on top of the LED.

Right.

So I guess this brings us to the final switch, final brown switch we offer, which is actually not RGB friendly.

Right.

The kale brown, it's confusing because a lot of switches have really, really similar names.

so kale box brown versus kale brown they're different switches kale brown is a little different than the other two because it's it's heavier than both it's still obviously a tactile switch that's why it's called brown but it's weightier and to me it feels springier like you kind of as you're typing at at least to me, I feel like, oh yeah, there's there are springs inside these.

In the sense that it pushes back or as you're pushing down, like probably more in the sense that it pushes back, but yeah, but you know, and maybe I am giving away a bit about my age here, but if you're someone who ever played with a slinky, like you were a kid, I don't know, it's It's like a little bit like typing on lots of tiny little slinkies.

I like that.

We should put that on the website.

It's springy, which makes it kind of, I guess both firm and responsive feeling, I would call it.

So out of all three, totally subjective, which one is your favorite?

it.

Oh boy, that is tough.

Well, I have to say I've used kale brown the least.

So it's hard to compare.

I do like a heavier switch, but probably not for heavy typing on all day long because that can't get tiring.

There are.

I don't think I can pick.

There are elements of both the cherry MX Brown and the kale box brown that I like a lot.

I've used both as my daily driver for long periods of time.

I think for me the perfect brown switch would be a little bit of a combination because I like that the cherry MX Brown's tactile bump is just a little bit firmer, just a little bit more noticeable.

But I like that the kale box browns, tactile bump is just a little crisper.

So it's, that's a cop-out answer.

I know it's like, who's your favorite child?

Well, I like them both.

Actually, actually, it's an interesting answer because you made that distinction, and I can see, you know, I can see what you're saying, and there's still room, right?

So there's more for yet another brown switch that kind of melds the two and does it just right, possibly.

Right, right.

But again, also, these differences are small, and so that means I am happy to type on both of these switches.

I think they're both nice feeling.

I think in general people find the kale switches to feel a little smoother than the cherry switches.

Yeah.

I do too.

For me it's not like when I say that the kale ones are smoother.

I don't so much mean in the shape of the bump, but more along the actual stem.

Like, as I depress it, all the way through, and then it goes up, there's just something, it almost feels like a lubricated switch, which it's not out of the factories, as far as I know.

Right.

But it feels very pleasant, like very smooth in that regard, rather than the bump itself.

Right.

For me, I think that that effect is more noticeable on the linear switches than the tactile.

Yeah.

But I know what you mean.

And I agree.

I agree.

It's on a linear switch that's all you have, right?

Right.

Exactly.

Just that up and down motion.

So definitely.

That said though, there are other tactile switches, right?

There are.

And we'll talk about those in future episodes.

But we, of course, there are more out there in the world, but among the switches that we carry, there's also kale copper and cherry MX clear, which we'll talk about later because they're both more different.

The brown switches are all pretty similar to each other.

The kale copper and cherry MX clear switches are different from the browns and from each other.

Awesome.

Well, thank you so much.

Sure, thank you.

This was fun.

Yeah.

I hope it was helpful.

All right.

See you on the next one.

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